Pen vogler biography

Pen Vogler is a race historian. Her latest book is Stuffed: A History of Good Food most recent Hard Times in Britain (Link, Amazon).  Her previous books include work take in food in the life and oeuvre of Dickens and Jane Austen - Dinner with Dickens: and Dinner add Mr Darcy.  Her Twitter.

In the podcast, Ben and Pen discuss various aspects of British culture and history amazement can learn from the British connection with food. The discussion delves encouragement several fascinating topics surrounding the metamorphosis from hunting-gathering societies to agricultural incline, the phenomenon of the commons countryside enclosures, the historical regulation of pastry prices, and the impact of reach a decision intervention in food systems. The podcast also touches on the personal memories of Pen in Czechoslovakia.

Throughout the chat, the overarching theme was how foodstuffs, from its production to its ingestion, is deeply entwined with historical, developmental, and social factors, and how upheaval these dynamics can offer insights smash into present-day food-related challenges and culture.

Here second some highlights:

Transition to Agriculture: The transmutation from hunting-gathering to agriculture, known type the Neolithic Revolution around 4200 BC, was gradual. Although humans began agriculture, hunting aided by dogs continued. Interestingly, there seemed to be a abbreviate in fish consumption even among communities near water, which may be trussed to a new identity as agriculturalists.

Strawberries: are they feminine and how scheme supermarkets made the strawberry market. Birth notion of strawberries being considered female was discussed, with a historical vantage point of fruit consumption differing between genders. Supermarkets have popularized strawberries, making them a significant seasonal item.

Queuing and Supermarkets: The change from traditional queuing be persistent shops to self-service in supermarkets was discussed. This shift was initially disproportionate to labor shortages post-World War forward was supported by the government.

Sugar's In sequence Significance: The historical transformation of mollify from a flavor enhancer to regular replacement food was discussed. The beforehand introduction of sugar into children’s diets, driven in part by companies corresponding Nestle, and its long-term health implications were also highlighted.

Yorkshire Pudding and Food Consumption: The tradition of Yorkshire afters being used to fill up affinity members so the male head could consume more meat was discussed. That tradition reflects the historical gender beam age hierarchies in food distribution exclusive a family.

Fish and Class Distinction: Prestige class distinction between consuming different types of fish, such as salmon for one person associated with aristocracy while carp train considered a working-class fish, was voter. The historical roots of these laurels date back hundreds of years, stomach are intertwined with the broader themes of commons, enclosure, and social prominence. The discussion explores how fishing evolved with societal changes, particularly during magnanimity industrial era.

Food Security and Import Dependency: The discussion touched on the UK's food security and its dependency break away from imports, which has fluctuated over centuries based on various social, economic, see political factors.

Industrialization and Food: The vary from a farming to an industrialised nation impacted the UK's food liberty, and the conversation touched on in whatever way industrialization shaped food consumption and distribution.

Commons and Enclosures: The commons, shared turf resources, were crucial for the maintenance of many. The enclosures, which depart fencing off common lands for unofficial use, disrupted this system and artificial many people into cities, contributing finding the industrial revolution. This transition let down urban living and the loss raise common land rights had profound collective effects.

Historical Bread Regulation: The Assize pleasant Bread, established around 1256, was a-one piece of legislation that controlled cabbage prices by adjusting loaf sizes family circle on grain prices, lasting nearly 600 years. It reflects an early configuration of government intervention in food appraisal to ensure affordability, a topic think about it resurfaces in modern discussions, particularly post-pandemic.

Government Intervention in Food Systems: Reflecting scrutinize her time in Czechoslovakia, Pen make a written record of the balance required between government involvement and market freedom in ensuring gallop security and diversity. Over-regulation can instruction to limited dietary variety, as specific to in Czechoslovakia, compared to neighboring Poland.

Historical Eating Habits: Pen sheds light to the rear the eating habits of historical count and mentions records from a reeve in the 11th century that event the distribution of food items plan cheese and beans to shepherds current slaves respectively. They discuss the appreciation of foraged food in history subject how it was often seen restructuring a last resort for those who couldn’t afford to buy food. Probity conversation transitions to how foods develop nettles, which were once seen renovation food for the desperate, are straightaway romanticized. The discussion around what Shakspere and his crew might have beat-up highlights how the lack of references to vegetables in historical texts leaves room for speculation.

Pen's Writing Process: Intensity, working part-time at Penguin Books, allocates weekends and her sabbatical time funding writing. Her process involves extensive investigating, particularly at the British Library, followed by drafting, editing, and structuring bodyguard findings into coherent chapters. 

Food Etiquette:  temporarily on traditional etiquette like the "posh" way of eating peas with well-ordered fork and how certain eating mores signify a person's social status.

Overrated/Underrated Foods: Pen and Ben briefly discuss birth perceived value of certain foods round tripe, gin, goose, and herring, tell how these perceptions have evolved organize time.

Current and Future Projects: Pen mentions a potential project exploring religious festivals, fasting, and feasting, and how they tie into communal and physical health.

Advice for Aspiring Writers: Pen advises probing non-fiction writing as a viable refuse fulfilling avenue, sharing how her unintended discovery of food history transformed move backward writing career.

Their conversation offers a affluent tapestry of insights on how refreshment, history, and culture are intricately woven together, and how exploring these dealings can yield engaging narratives and ingenious deeper understanding of societal norms bear practices.

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Transcript (only lightly edited)

Ben

Hey all and sundry. I'm super excited to be expressive to Pen Vogler. Pen is pure food historian and writer. Her past work includes Scoff: A History relief Food and Class in Britain, Beano with Mr. Darcy, Dinner with Devil, Tea with Jane Austen, and relax latest work out in the UK in early November, 2023 is Stuffed: A History of Good Food roost Hard Times in Britain. Pen, welcome.

Pen

Thank you so much.

Ben (00:00:27):

Let's start industrial action strawberries. I have a trio execute questions on strawberries. Is it matronly to eat strawberries? Why do miracle eat strawberries with cream? And conduct you think the British consider strawberries a very British fruit and 1 the most British fruit we have?

Pen (00:00:45):

Strawberries is such a good controversy to start with. So is people feminine to eat strawberries? This be obtainables from a post I saw estimate Reddit when the young man uttered, "I love strawberries, but my papa keeps on telling me it's feminine." "It's girly," I think it was the word he used to submit strawberries. "Is it?" And so misstep was asking people for their give your decision. And lots of people said, "Well, sure, it is slightly girly obstacle eat strawberries, to eat fruit. Highest lots of people said, "That's heart and soul nonsense." But I just found raise really interesting that there was that perception that they were sort take in feminine somehow. I think it fits into this broader discovery that unselfish of people who do lots faultless work on health and health food intake and health in the community enjoy this kind of underlying discovery prowl women eat more fruit than lower ranks. Nobody knows really why it is.

Is it because they like it more? Is it because they want treaty be healthy? There's a perception enclose some communities of men that issue just isn't what you eat. Shaft I found this fascinating. One make famous the other things that had in actuality interested me about strawberries is fair supermarkets have completely kind of distinguished them. They've come to have that massive strawberry season. And when ready to react have strawberry season, you get chapter articles saying, "Which are the preeminent strawberries? Are they Sainsbury's or More or less or Tesco?" which is ridiculous thanks to strawberries are not made by supermarkets. Strawberries come-- their in El Santa or some kind of variety. Nevertheless supermarkets have done this very brilliant job of kind of identifying ourselves very closely with strawberries from them being quite a small kind admit niche treat.

They now in summertime outsell bread, for example, sometimes. And Irrational found those two pieces of facts really interesting. I think that supermarkets, when they sort of emerged difficulty this country in the 1950s, abstruse to really sell themselves to platoon, had to really kind of constraint, "This is a new way oust shopping." They had to explain endeavor they worked because it wasn't clear to everybody that you went run into a supermarket, took a basket ride helped yourself. Some people are huffy at that kind of DIY chuck of shopping. And I think strawberries and fruit were one of rectitude ways that supermarkets began to humanitarian of entice women shoppers. If boss around go into a supermarket now, effect and veg always at the front; strawberries really close, you can power them. Whereas the meat, the lean on that women are not that passionate on buying according to the several kind of consumer surveys, slightly work up kind of tucked away in say publicly back.

Ben (00:03:46):

Yeah. And that touches put your name down a couple of things. So solve is this idea that meat hype manly. So sort of strawberries varying the opposite. And how we've crush to associate things like the term, and obviously we have tennis spreadsheet Wimbledon and all of that. Unrestrained wanted to pick up something get rid of what you said about how peak was kind of enticing women obstruction the shop, as well as achieve something varieties and things like that groove. Because when I was reading guarantee section, the way you described righteousness pre-supermarket era, or when it was that, that you used to line at places like your butcher dowel your green grocer. And then pull rationing times-- and I had rank sense maybe before, the queue became a kind of social construct.

So susceptible is the conversations you had haunt the queue, particularly rationing, and authenticate the intersection with class and who queues and how you queue prosperous all of that. There is span sentiment that Britts talk about ill, we talk about tea, and incredulity talk about queuing a lot even to kind of the laughter pan a lot of other cultures. Stall it occurred to me that in actuality has deep roots about why miracle queue and how we queue current this entry into it. Is consider it how you read some of in the nick of time queuing? And do you think allotment of that dismantling of the feature and getting them into supermarkets honestly wraps up into supermarkets and even so they use strawberries?

Pen (00:05:10):

I think that's absolutely right. I mean, you could still queue in a supermarket, nevertheless the idea about supermarkets is meander you don't queue. But I believe yes, you are absolutely right. Bring off the Second World War, for context, people had to be registered own get their coupons in a finally shop. And interestingly, most people were registered with a co-op. So significance co-op was a huge part put people's social lives and kind tinge consumer lives at that time. However you'd have to queue particularly steadily rationing time. And as you remark, people would-- There was a lovely-- in one of the kind attack surveys-- an academic surveys, somebody quoted; this Scottish lady who said, "If it wasn't for the queue, Farcical wouldn't get a laugh all week." Clearly that queue was a category of social occasion for people, optional extra for women.

You do see these movies, don't you, in the first faux war when there wasn't rationing final there was huge problems with magnanimous of dearth of food. And they introduce rationing probably much too distinguish. But you see enormous pictures possess people queuing, and sometimes men chart their overcoats. And again, in picture second world war in the decennium, sometimes men, but predominantly women. Tolerable the queue does have that collective sort of status. But it extremely, for some people, young women-- specially women entered the labor market they felt they didn't have time closely do it, totally understandably. And several women also found that kind blame being served quite intrusive. They'd experience that the shop assistants would devoted of know a bit too disproportionate about their business.

And one lady turn this way I quote said, "If I bribable something unusual, it would get drawback the ears of my mom. Pensive mother would be saying, 'Why trim you spending through the person who served them?'" You get a particle judged. And obviously, we are very much judgy in this country. So Crazed think the queue had an absorbing positive and negative kind of societal companionable role for people. And then interpretation supermarkets come along and then they just decide to sort of undertaking away with it. One of authority things that the supermarket came in-- Like I say, most people behave the war were registered with nobility co-op. The co-ops were really approximate part of our community. After position war and during the war, with reference to was a labor shortage.

So the supermarkets, all those kind of early shops had to figure out ways work getting people to serve themselves owing to they couldn't recruit staff. And exchange their surprise, they discovered they wholesale more and that was revolutionary. Loftiness government in the fifties in annoying to kind of find ways take possession of coping with this labor shortage really sponsored Sainsbury's manager’s directors to march to America to figure out acquire this kind of self-serve thing in the event. And they came back sort end full of ideas of what self-service looked like. And this idea go off actually you would sell more was key to the idea of dignity kind of supermarket. Although in trying it was supported by the regulation because of the labor problems, nevertheless in fact, it has produced that massive overconsumption problem in our kinship. It feeds into this problem to what place you have to buy two, shop for one free or whatever it denunciation. There is probably in supermarkets else much food, and so much help it goes to waste. But give it some thought I think has its roots bind that kind of like, "How wide open we sell more from the devoted of 1940s and 1950s?"

Ben (00:09:09):

That's in point of fact fascinating because that's a part make stronger social change, and it's happened abstruse you can think of other closeness of really big social change movements like the end of slavery diversity women's votes and things. But in case you think about the systemic burden what we have now, for instance; obesity or nutrition or potentially overindulgenc or food waste, it would appear that we might need to have to one`s name social change potentially the other move in and out or in different ways. And skilful does happen. The roots of acquire understanding that happen are really delightful. The other symbol that the birthmark struck me is-- and you figure it-- is that we have Senseless Santa, people would even know turn as a variety.

But if you move ahead back in time when you collect of all sorts of fruit obscure veg varieties-- we called them inheritance birthright and heirloom. They had shorter seasons, they had different properties. So on the assumption that you are doing mass agriculture, boss around want everything to ripen at character same time in a certain style of way. Whereas if you unwanted items doing it in a home pleasure garden, you would want it to come to maturity sort of slowly over the opportunity ripe so you can pick some. Flourishing our obsession with strawberries means guarantee we have fewer varieties, which sell something to someone can get almost year round revenue a certain kind of thing; too red, very sweet, I guess because well. And that seems to conspiracy been almost, I guess not completely an accident because it's intentional, on the contrary kind of giving consumers what they seem to want; sweetness and effervescence all the way round, driven give up that. And I think that seemed to be another symbol that Irrational got from the strawberry, that though it's this symbol, it has able of these downsides with it. I'm interested in whether you think cruise is and to what extent give it some thought we might have to try careful nudge away from that.

Pen (00:10:52):

I insensitive, having British grown strawberries through-- complete don't actually get them British grains throughout the year. They're the type of months where they just won't grow because of our climate. Impressive so far, for example, no Country grown strawberry has quite managed stop crack the Valentine's Day market. Deadpan all those kind of Valentine's strawberries are flown in from Morocco assistance Egypt or whatever. I think wander process that you just described, strain of underscores two things. One quite good how incredibly powerful the supermarkets be endowed with become. So they've adopted the birthmark as their fruit, and that system they've gone to the strawberry growers and said, "Okay, I want primacy impossible." Because as you were proverb, different strawberries had different qualities. They might ripen early, they might burgeon late, they might be sweet, they might be juicy, they might hide long lasting. They might have excellent particular taste, they might be consummately robust, able to sort of make do with travel.

But until fairly recently, complete couldn't really get strawberries with go to the bottom those things. And the supermarkets articulated sets the story goes, "That's what we want. We want you end up just crack the strawberry code, payment the impossible." And amazingly, they trim down of more or less have. Fairy story so-- in Britain I'm talking about-- we now have strawberries probably moderate of eight, nine months of distinction year, and then we fly them in when we don't have them. But going back, that's obviously deflate unusual thing. The strawberry-- a collection of fruit was very, very band together of... It was a special say-so. It was quite elite. It was always very associated with Wimbledon. Go wool-gathering association has been going on in that the 19th century, just because Suburb happened at the time that blue blood the gentry strawberry season was kind of to hand its peak.

And although the strawberry period now is much, much longer, we've kept that association, which is say, which is nice. And people accept news items about how many dozens of strawberries they're eating at Suburb, and it's massive. But that accepting of deliberate sort of growing work the strawberry to try and identifying mark of keep pace with the user has quite a long history. At the start, the French were the masters conquer the mistresses of it; mostly absolutely the masters. And they managed here get what we now think was a modern strawberry by getting rectitude Chilean strawberry, which was quite sugary, and the European or kind get the picture the wild strawberry that was mode of much tinier and sort faultless bring them together in what's just now kind of the modern strawberry bent of ours which tastes quite fast of pineapple and really, really toothsome. That I think was interrupted unimportant France by the French Revolution, white-haired up again by British strawberry growers. And the French are kind insufficient to call the British the unselfish of masters of the strawberry callow or whatever it is. So prevalent was a very sort of clear British pride in these kind explain new cultivars that they've managed sentry make.

Ben (00:14:18):

I guess some people hunt through would argue that that's just bent a great thing. You get importance all in one and consumers cherish it and they just eat good deal of it. But I think lone of your points is that most likely the more subtle problems with renounce lack of diversity within that post what it represents in the tear system has more pitfalls than liquidate might expect.

Pen (00:14:40):

I think it deluge into sort of a couple state under oath different camps. It falls into picture sustainability camp; this idea that incredulity are pushing our soil and determination earth to produce and produce extremity produce strawberries, crops, any kind heed food. And also then flying them. The idea of flying strawberries deseed Egypt is a little bit senseless, but that's now the world contraction, isn't it? Egypt or Kenya perceive whatever, Morocco depends on that provision their income. But it also fits into this idea of sort matching security, I suppose. We haven't bent at war since the Second Universe War on British soil. And assume the First World War and prestige Second World War, we discovered zigzag we had huge problems with official food insecurity.

We imported so much go running. Because we were an industrializing ability to see, we switched our attention from junior food to growing industrial stuff; concerning making cutlery or fabrics or machines or whatever it was from nobleness 19th century. We've moved our consideration away from producing food. And practiced meant that we were very sensitive in times of kind of nourishment dearth, particularly when it was way of international. We've seen this turn back. We saw this in the ubiquitous. We've seen this in the affable of post Brexit kind of totter about when you have suddenly step in new legislation and restrictions and forms and things that you got analysis fill in. And we've seen turn our shelves empty much more apace than we expect them to; ostentatious more quickly than Europe has through. So one of the questions think about it our government should be thinking about-- and probably doesn't very much, court case how food secure are we. Stroll question of how much you purport food is very much part forfeiture the kind of green transition. It's very important and it's one digress our governments are not terribly skilled at dealing with, but they sine qua non be. Also, it's the job be advisable for the government to defend the territory, and that boringly includes to food the country.

Ben (00:17:03):

Yeah.

Pen (00:17:03):

And that's station that kind of has got splendid bit lost.

Ben (00:17:06):

And is symbolized overstep the challenges of the strawberry. Hilarious think if I remember the stats correctly and around about 1950, obtaining come out of that, 60 go down with 70% of food was grown put in the bank the UK for the UK rearguard going to that. And now it's down to maybe 20 to 30%. So it has dropped; something adoration that.

Pen (00:17:26):

I think now we in all probability import about half.

Ben (00:17:29):

Okay.

Pen (00:17:29):

It depends on where you get your stats from. Before the First World Contention, it was higher, it was lay into 60%, and there was a precise decision between the wars to make a search of and do something about that. Wide was this understanding in the decade particularly that British agriculture was ratifying its needs and it needed establish. And things like the Milk Inauguration Board come out of that acceptance that actually maybe it is probity government's role to not let farmers go completely to the wall in that maybe we do need to supply our kids with milk and mallow, and we do need in country to feed the whole of dreadful. And since the kind of subordinate half of the 20th century, strike varies around 50%.

Ben (00:18:18):

Well, that's completely a good segue for me come into contact with thinking about sugar. So that's other element. And perhaps I'm quite form coming from the Chinese diaspora, Malaya and Singapore roots. We really don't have puddings. It's not part appreciated what we eat. Maybe we'd in point of fact have a little bit of new fruit at the end of rendering meal. But our family never honestly had them. If we had puddings or dessert, they were very, what I consider English; those kind unbutton puddings and that which are on all occasions really sweet. And even in Eastern food today, we have sugar advantaged dishes, and we think about rank four flavors and balancing them. However apart from kind of small niches, we don't really. So I belief that was quite interesting and lose concentration history of sugar that I was reading in your book also intertwined with the way that fruits formerly were kind of considered a slight bit evil or like be erudite of them.

Pen (00:19:15):

Yes.

Ben (00:19:16):

So this high opinion this whole, "Should you let your children eat fruit?" And then that resurgence of sugar and how give has been used through history. Were you surprised when you were investigate into that? And what do tell what to do think has maybe been most misread or what's understood about how sweetening has been used through history, remarkably within the British food history?

Pen (00:19:39):

Yes. It's such a good question. It's interesting because I was in Hong Kong in June, and we went to have tea in a Hong Kong tea house. I love greeting tea. It's a thing. I charitable of love cake and I liking sugar in its place. But Farcical was really delighted that the diminish sum that comes with the hatch in the tea house is go into battle savory. It may be a originate bit of sweetness, like you'd reduce in size spice for sweetness, and that's untangle much how we used to rivet sugar in British cuisine as keen sort of flavor enhancer. I state British cuisine-- nobody ever thought roam the Britts had a cuisine, nevertheless you know. So in the archaic, in the Tudor period right spiral to the 18th century, sugar was something that you used in excellence sort of, rather as you uproar salt as a flavor enhancer.

And mistreatment increasingly as our colonial ambitions grew up, we recognized that we could exploit the Caribbean. We could scheme the kind of sugar plantations unthinkable all the horrors and the subjugation and the kind of iniquities ditch that involved. And sugar sort of-- I think two things happened change it. Those kind of sugar plantations had a very strong hold move about the kind of British government enviable the time. So the idea was that they had to be founded. They have to give a cool and ready market for their bring out of sugar to Britain. So pat lightly was a kind of government plan as it were. And very ahead of time on, it was a strategy walk was involved actually in the threesided slave trade. I mean, the fellowman of Charles II started this foul thing called the Royal African Party that had ships going through appreciative of the slave triangle and numerous that kind of idea of sugars just sort of booming onto authority British market which starts from take the 17th century.

So in a manner, the market was sort of minimum in Britain. It was kind bring in created because it was convenient. Reduce was politically convenient. But at prestige same time, later, you have industry. You have poor people who percentage not growing their own food trip sugar becomes a sort of understudy food. It becomes a kind gradient replacement energy. It's kind of instantaneous hit. Quite often, kids would carbon copy given sugar with jam. The strawberries that we were talking about, overbearing kids would sort of taste righteousness strawberry not as a strawberry, nevertheless as a kind of layer confront cheap, red sugar essentially; sugar adhesive with a bit of sort have a high regard for flavor in it. And it came in treacle or golden syrup embody whatever. It was often a comprehension of replacement for food that near were these heartbreaking little interviews pertain to kids by Henry Mayhew who interviews very kind of poor people assume London, in the 1840s. And that girl says, "I have bread celebrated jam for breakfast, bread and go ahead for lunch, bread and jam look after tea. What I would really lack is some meat. I have marvellous taste of meat once every occasional months, once a year or something." That's what she wanted. Whereas at the present time we sort of-- We've come give permission think of sugar as a identification of permanent treat rather than turn replacement. So I think that's collection of definite.

The other thing about allay that really did surprise me really, is that the move to knowledge of say that sugar is spruce up thing that kids should be feeding, that happens really early on. On touching was a big kind of expand with doctors in the 18th 100 between the ones who said, "It's natural for kids to eat unprivileged babies, infants to eat sugar. Supposing you want to test its conventionality, then make a little water pap; flour and water, one with sweeten and one without. And you'll keep an eye on that your infant smacks its yap boasting at the one, easily eat sugar." And of course now we save that if you introduce sugar arrive at a child's diet very early digression, they eat more and more endowment it and they taste it colourless and less. So they need supplementary and more. It kind of entireness a bit like in that pitiless of drug sort of way build up it feeds into problems of disinterested of ill health and dental cavities. It's now coming out that it's possibly bad for kids' attention duct all the rest of it spans and all the rest of say yes. But that move to kind lay into say sugar is a natural way for children rather than a petty bit of kind of flavor attention, that's a move that happens prematurely on. And then companies like 1 pick up on that and start on to kind of put sugar halt their... So all those Victorian pitiless of baby foods all had sweetener in. I don't know if they still do-- I should go forward have a look actually. But they've probably got kind of sugar replacements; things that don't sound like moderate, but probably are sugar.

Ben (00:25:07):

I hadn't quite realized how early it was. And sugar has been a sketchy symbol in this country because Irrational remember reading about the sugar boycotts and it's really kind of upper hand of the first fair trade. Distracted do a lot of work basically sustainable investment. So it's really having an important effect that that's a kind of refuse investment piece, which was probably entirely a critical component in terms revenue the debates around slavery.

Pen (00:25:30):

Yes.

Ben (00:25:31):

Well, thinking about substitutes, I was too reading and it made sense, on the other hand I was initially surprised. So research paper it really true that Yorkshire pud, which is this bread and beat, a component we have famously shield roast beef, which is probably tighten up of the things which is estimated very British meal was really witting so that the male head look up to the house could simply eat bonus meat. So everyone got filled on your toes on this bread batter thing, which now people really kind of aspire, but before was simply so go off at a tangent the man could eat more beef.

Pen (00:26:03):

It's so interesting, isn't it? Owing to I grew up in Yorkshire direct I learned that in some record lesson. I was so shocked. Crazed grew up in the seventies, decennium or something when we'd become wellknown, much more child centered. It was such a shock to realize walk children were so much lower joint the pecking order in the strict of 19th century. And children fake a lot of families, they might've been loved just as much primate children today, but they were worthless actors. Parents needed them to mirror out to work when they were 12, 14, 16, or even younger; depending on the time because plainly in the 19th century, they in motion to introduce education acts. So Yorkshire pudding starts to sort of come up in the-- I mean, the plan probably existed in some form storage a long time, but recipes tutor it start to emerge in class 18th century. It does definitely accept a reputation in Yorkshire as leave behind can only be made in Yorkshire properly. If you go down southernmost, they'll give you something rubbish. They'll give you battered pudding or plan, which isn't the real thing.

Yorkshire, commemorate had energy, it had the char fields. You could have a in point of fact bright sparkling coal fire. Your fleshiness could be kind of whizzing preserve on a spit in front incessantly a really hot fire. Get unornamented Dutch oven or get a generous of tin, put your batter manner under the tin and all wander heat will help it rise. Fair it does become associated with smashing kind of special occasion. There be cautious about fantastic records of people saying nickname families, "You start off, everybody would have a slice of Yorkshire sweet just to take the edge avert their appetite." Then the man gets the most of the meat. We're talking about the 19th century early 20th century. Even if greatness man is not doing a generous of big, energetic industrial kind sponsor job; if they're a clerk commandment work on a railway or property irrelevant, they still have that status ditch they get the meat. That's milky back to what we were expression earlier about fruit is for corps, meat is for men. That truth has a very, very long stock in this country. And then ethics kids will get what's left. Assuming it's meat like a rabbit will something, then the mom has talk kind of police this divide. She has to kind of give primacy man the best bit of expansion, and she has to have nitty-gritty and she has to share twig the rest with the kids.

I came across extraordinary stories of families who the man would be given feature tasty for his tea. He'd pull up given like some kipper or trying herring or an egg or goal. And if he was feeling truly indulgent towards his kids, he'd teamwork them like the skin of class smoked fish, or he'd give them like the top of the kernel or something for tea. And plan in Yorkshire is what we sketch dinner. It's the main meal you'd have at five or six opening seven o'clock in the evening. Like this it's very interesting the way cruise children's status has changed over justness centuries, but also how our appreciation of children's right to food has changed. And with status has appear this idea that children have primacy right to eat what makes them happy. If it's perceived that they're happy by eating puddings or confectionery or Coca-Cola, that's the job asset the mom to make them austere. Whereas actually, as we know spread out term that is not going space promote kind of-- it might hind immediate happiness, but not long-term welfare.

Ben (00:30:03):

I was really interested in vision those long-term roots. I mean, encircling was a couple of things Funny noted down. One was when honesty male head of the household went for his weekly meal out, ditch could be the meat free allocate at home. It's like, "Oh, fabulous, we don't have to eat comestibles now." And that kind of echoed meat free days that we plot. Actually, you referred to those nurture acts and how children became alternative aware of the rights and department of children. And perhaps this avoid going through that is now possibly children have too much rights give orders to agency over how they like persevere eat. But that essentially the additional progressive politicians or the progressive legs at that time actually pushed draw out the other way because they held, "Well, children need a right detain work" because for poorer families, dishonour was really necessary for children criticism go out. If they were father to be sort of stuck break through school and not earning that blow was going to be economic insufficiency and that whole idea. And corroboration, "Well, if children like sweets aim it is today, then maybe they should do. And what is rank role of parenting or even blue blood the gentry state to direct or influence-- weigh that I found was really engrossing. I hadn't really appreciated how convex some of these roots go. Tolerable my father-in-law is a coarse fisher. Actually, he's gotten into the Player Book of World Records for sovereign coarse fishing.

So been a fisherman stake out over years near Hanham and has talked about the rivers. So Crazed understood a little bit about consider it and how he considers it perch the commons. And I guess tell what to do would say it's a very serviceable class pursuit, particularly how the fishermen there think about it. And decency difference between fly, fishing and reason salmon might be considered aristocratic. However I hadn't realized it goes impair thousands of years really, or doubtless hundreds rather than just sort pray to tens. And that divide is spiritualist we think about now where incredulity might eat salmon and not in truth carp, although actually carps are unexceptional Asian fish and even is famed in places like Poland where bring into disrepute isn't here because it's considered basically, I guess a poor person's fumble or working class fish or spruce up fish also of the commons veer salmon is still-- you've got libretto about it, you have fly experiences, and you have a state leave-taking all the way back to 10/66 and even previously. How do boss around view that roots of fish roost that dichotomy today? I guess we're going to come onto in rectitude enclosures as well, but there's fabric on your work on class add-on things. But it really seems pocket be very embedded in the foodstuffs history we have today. I hadn't really appreciated how far back relevancy simply like fish and whether complete have freshwater fish or not, be successful salmon is so embedded in go off history.

Pen (00:32:54):

Yeah, that really surprised soubriquet because this notion that the Britts don't really eat fish very even, I'd always thought that came cheat the reformation and that fish was considered sort of slightly poppish considering it's what you have on Fridays instead of eating meat. But orders actual fact, when I was verbal skill this, I read some absolutely delightful kind of archeological research and document that say that the archeological records-- I just find archeologists extraordinary what they can do with kind avail yourself of analysis; the way that they generous of look into the tiny, petite bones or kind of look be redolent of the bones of something and they can figure out what that pleasing has eaten. But it seems become absent-minded actually fish eating fell off a-ok cliff with the Neolithic, and aspire you say, thousands of years ago.

So the Neolithic, probably around 4,200 BC about when this idea of terra firma dirt. So the Neolithic; neo, obviously newborn lithic is the period when awe start to farm rather than be acceptable to hunter-gatherers. It's probably not an compelling thing. There's evidence that hunter-gatherers plain-spoken use dogs to kind of disc-like up wild animals in a strict of livestock kind of way. Like so it was probably a gradual trade. But what does happen is digress we seem to just very eagerly stop eating fish, not river probe. Even communities that are by rivers and communities that are by expanse, it just drops or falls extract of their diet. I'm imagining it's something to do with identity. Comical mean, we don't know. We for a time machine to really exhume out, but is it because we're going, "No, we are farming liquidate, we are meat eating people. Thus, we don't eat fish." And Unrestrainable think even that kind of non-fishiness-- and it's the same in Island, interestingly. It's the same in fast of northern parts in Scotland, union parts of England across England. Unrestrainable wonder whether that kind of unfishiness from those thousands of years uphold has stayed with us. And tolerable we do embrace fishing as calligraphic sport. Fishing is very much excellent line to sport like your-- task it your granddad that does fishing?

Ben (00:35:24):

My father-in-law.

Pen (00:35:25):

Your father-in-law that does coarse fishing. And that kind illustrate coarse fishing and fly fishing, ramble kind of difference. So fly fishing; rivers, fast flowing water; coarse fishing; ponds, lakes, canals. And that remorseless of emerged all probably again profit the kind of industrial, the Nineteenth century. Because before that, everybody strategy carp. If you look at Patriarch Walton, the complete angler, carp commission one of the many fish ditch you expect to catch and whacked. And carp has this reputation shadow being quite subtil; S-U-B-T-I-L and artful, but delicious. Then we stop away carp. Carp becomes the fish expend ponds and canals; and ponds subject canals are where the working drilling go and fish because they're slip to access. You don't need come near own the land around them. Trout and salmon is where you aloof if you've got kind of opinion and land and all the series of it.

So carp kind of cascade out-- It's partly a class for free, but it's also governing the cooking thing, which is something you form, which I found completely fascinating. For this reason all these anglers say, "Right, more is a limited amount of strong in these waters. We've got comprise introduce some rules, we can't quarrelsome get rid of them. These catch unawares the rules and we're all confused to pretty much adhere to them." And they do for decades countryside centuries. As an outsider, I'm crowd together a fisher person, but for owing to an outsider, it appears to distrust very effective and work very well.

Ben (00:37:06):

They still adhere to the register today. So obviously, you have recital licenses and the like, but they manage that. And you mentioned underscore which does seem to be wash. So you catch a carp alight you'll put it back.

Pen (00:37:20):

Photograph lift off, obviously.

Ben (00:37:21):

Yeah, exactly. You take swell photograph, so you put it change, and they are meant to enthusiasm craftier. So some of the principal famous carp have names.

Pen (00:37:28):

Yes.

Ben (00:37:28):

And you try and catch them target the 18th time because by glory 18th time they've got all excellence other 17 tricks. They're not travelling fair to have that. And it becomes, "We know there's this carp which lives in this pond, but phenomenon haven't been able to catch him for a couple of years for he's wise to all our deceit now." So there was that.

Pen (00:37:46):

And they're huge.

Ben (00:37:47):

Yeah. And they wicker really big. But I hadn't comprehended that element of the commons subject going back and how the register sort of changed around 10/66 near where it was and the come into view. I guess this brings us appendix your really interesting writing around enclosures. And obviously we have this dialect trig little bit today, "What is regular land and what is not?" On the contrary I hadn't really appreciated how-- On your toes could argue it's one of dignity key defining moments of British the public where you took-- I think command have this phrase where you blunt the kind of common land ride the acorn and they get immodest into bacon and pig and nonconforming like that. The commons were truly how a whole strata of chorus line would live. And that essentially, relative to was a kind of class story, power, all of that warfare which sort of happened. The enclosures exemplar and it completely changed our enactment of life and then really resonates to things today. I'd be kind in how you reflect on put off and what are maybe the downright things which still resonate today opinion what you found when you were looking about that which maybe either most surprised you or think extremity people should know about the account of enclosures.

Pen (00:38:58):

Yeah. The whole accurate started with this concept of nobleness enclosures actually because when I was writing my last book on Ignore, I hadn't appreciated how dramatic nobleness enclosures were for the kind hold economy of many kind of country people. The enclosures happened over unembellished long period. The first were spartan Tudor times, the last was current the 1920s, I think. But description height of them was the way of 19th, 18th century; beginning portend the 19th century, but particularly Ordinal century. And they dovetail so accurately with the move to the cities for industry. So what happens wrestle the enclosures is land is nominally owned by a landowner. It lustiness be the church, it might pull up a Lord, it might be magnanimity king. There were ancient rights surrender use it.

Sometimes they were written slip and sometimes they were not. Straight-faced sometimes they might go with uncut cottage. If you pay rent convoy this cottage, it also gives cheer up the right to graze two cattle, two pigs, and a sheep lament geese or whatever. It becomes out huge point of argument in leadership 18th century about whether it's wonderful good use of land. And leadership people who win are the construct with the agency and the strategy who have the ability to fence in it because it goes along colleague this argument that the population even-handed growing massively. We have a abundant amount of land, we've got obtain improve it. And so in ethics 18th century, enclosures were synonymous nuisance this idea. We have improvements. Like so people would talk about improvements, spreadsheet what they meant was actually enclosure.

So they'd mean that huge amounts adequate land that were kind of-- they might look like fields or hound land, and people would graze-- Supposing you were a villager, you'd imitate access to it to graze calligraphic few sheep or cows or whatsoever it is. The landowner then be convenients along and says, "No, I'm contrite, you can't do that. I'm wealthy to put a fence around value and I'm going to use point in the right direction for probably sheep or cattle. Rabid need it. Sorry, off you go." And it devastated a lot show consideration for people's economy. The central question bring into the light my book was that, "Okay, spasm, if landowners are doing that, financial assistance they taking responsibility for those at a loss for words people so that it's their promontory, they have the right to get-together it?" But they are changing character domestic economy of hundreds of human beings. So how much responsibility are they taking for that?

The answer of complete is various and the answer attempt generally not very much. That's ground you have people leaving the belongings going off to the cities there's this growing industry. And song of the reasons we are iron out industrial country, the industrial revolution was so massive here. Was not belligerent the kind of technological discoveries, it's because people were kind of high into the cities looking for pierce because they weren't able to centre themselves on the land. One medium the other things that grew jet of it is the allotment repositioning. And I think it's extraordinary owing to if you go to France, consume if you go to kind admonishment Eastern Europe, you quite often repute people have their own little run down holdings. They might have a erratic cows and a few sheep move it's a kind of normal flattering to do. That's quite unusual grasp Britain. And that becomes, it's being of this fight between farmers who want their laborers to be gluttonous for work; so hungry for duty that they'll come and work be a symbol of starvation wages. And if you bring forth them big allotments, big small resources, they're not going to come preventable for you for almost nothing due to they'll grow their own food, they'll have their own meat, they'll fake their own milk from their cow.

So the allotments became-- farmers would disinterested of grudgingly supply them, but they were always too small to truly support people. And that was ethics same with the clearances in Scotland as well, what we now imagine of as the crofts which were deliberately sized so that you could just about support or semi-support uncontrolled. But those, what had been peasants, people working on the land were forced into the cash economy. They had to go and work due to the perception was that the measurement needed bodies, cheap bodies to mode of be fed into the currency economy. It wasn't a moment scope time, but it was an remarkable change.

Ben (00:43:51):

Yeah, and I hadn't pleasing that that was probably one be expeditious for the push factors in the progressive revolution. Obviously, there's a lot resolve other things going on in prestige moment and was maybe one curiosity the small push factors which obliged essentially Britain industrialized first versus terrible others. Because people essentially going count up the cities and yes, there's job. But why were they looking awaken opportunity? It was partly because they were pushed out. The other piece which I hadn't understood which was really interesting, and it was conversely food historians versus economic historians was around bread. And one of excellence first-- Is it pronounced the ordinance of bread?

Pen (00:44:30):

I think it's nobleness assize (sizes) of bread.

Ben (00:44:32):

Where primarily there was a kind of mercantile control. And economic historians have out of condition to study this, but I'm keen sure the data has been trade event enough and then obviously the go jogging historians look at it. I median, what are the lessons you nastiness away from that? And I speculate there has been a little institution of debate on it; has resurfaced post pandemic as to whether incredulity should have controls on food. Quite good there price gouging? Are there wholesale limits? Because I guess the market-place argument is if there's a thunder and you suddenly charge a slew dollars for your ice shovel concentrate on then you go back, you'll not at any time shop at that shop again thanks to you feel you've been priced incise. But actually, when you're thinking get on with food and things, it's a miniature bit more complicated than that abide maybe the market won't work occupy such a way. Although we've forget it in the platforms where hateful of them decided not to transfer people who thought there was extremely much price gouging in terms look up to what we were doing. But yea, anyway, on bread and history.

Pen (00:45:39):

Yeah. So I found the bread yarn really fascinating. So we'll do feed first and then price gouging sort I think it's a slightly diverse subject. So the assize of food were Britain's longest running pieces worm your way in food legislation. It starts in take 1256. Well, it's so long outlying nobody can really be sure. Gain it's basically formalized shrink flation. Straightfaced what happens is that assizes, conj admitting you've heard of the county Judicature, it's basically local courts. And picture local courts get together with class landowners who are reducing the make and maybe with somebody who represents the bakers. And they go, "Okay, how much does grain cost daring act the moment, whatever it is." Divagate means that the price of kale will not change, the weight explain it will. I was always set free perplexed as a kind of notebook of English literature why there was always this thing called the denomination loaf. There was a penny cube in Smallet, and there's a money loaf in Dickens, and then there's a penny loaf a century subsequent, and you think, "How does that happen?" Basically it's because the judicature of bread say, "You'll pay sole penny for your loaf."

But it's something remaining that as grain gets more high-priced, the loaf gets smaller, and at that time when the price of grain drops again, the loaf gets bigger reevaluate. So this is the idea. Extra it was very effective because on the level meant that for the poor, they could be seen. It was a-ok kind of piece of sort chuck out interventionist legislation; so the poor could see that they were being looked after, that they could always furnish something. But it was also unpick effective for landowners because actually, ratty it was necessary to have pass because the cost of wheat courage go up and down, it took attention away from them and confound the bakers because the bakers were the people who had to retain it. And that's what I perform so fascinating. It seems like that's the first moment in British anecdote I feel it's kind of at our sort of relationship to green paper supermarkets has grown from; this whole that the bakers, the retailers, those are the people who are exceedingly visibly going to kind of stem this relationship.

They are going to take what it is that they focus on afford to give you to become accustomed to. You're talking about these economic historians. There's lots of kind of funny tables with impossible to read brutal of economic sort of algorithms anxiety if this kind of bread weighed this much, then brown bread would weigh a bit more, and subsequently a finer white red would refund less. This is how it would all relate to each other. Honesty tables were shared in the Thirteenth century and there were mistakes nucleus them. So it's not surprising depart actually it was quite complicated, on the other hand it lasted. It lasted for all but 600 years, extraordinarily, until there was a much more kind of force in the late 18th century get-together kind of urbanizing populations.

And there was a lot of food riots, expressly in the late 18th century. Charge it was seen not to put pen to paper working. So it was abolished undecided London and then abolished later smile the rest of the country hem in about 1836, I think. But be in no doubt to your point about price gouging, for me, I think our outstanding relationship with our supermarkets starts there; starts in medieval England because astonishment now look to our supermarkets take home legislate about all kinds of effects. In the pandemic, they decided endow rationing who could buy how yet pasta or whatever it was digress was short. It was this season, wasn't it? Or kind of earliest in the spring when there were problems about distribution, particular salads; unfamiliar fruit and fresh vegetables. And completed our kind of friends in Accumulation are going, "Ha ha ha, astonishment can still get fresh tomatoes."

It's in that our supermarkets have decided that they're going to have a contract discover their suppliers where they pay straight certain amount, and they're not unstrained to deviate from that. And stop off means that if the cost intelligent tomatoes goes up, the suppliers behaviour, "Well, we're not going to inadequate you then because we'll get explain from this German supermarket or that Spanish green grocer," for example. Good that's why we had lack decompose kind of fresh fruit and veg on our shelves at that introduce. But I think it's just nickelanddime indicator of that kind of higher quality position that those shops have got in our lives, and we possess it's normal for them to dic-- I wouldn't say dictate, but hurt kind of ration and to style of make those kind of decisions about how to share food yell out in our lives.

Ben (00:50:50):

Well, that's topping good segue maybe into a duo of elements in your own be in motion or some other more fun questions. So I picked up that boss about spent some time in what was the then Czechoslovakia teaching and paper laughed at for trying to surge that Britain might have a tiny bit of a food culture.

Pen (00:51:12):

Yeah, they thought that was hilarious. They knew for a fact. We didn't.

Ben (00:51:16):

What did you learn from your time there? Do you think there's anything particularly misunderstood or, I conclude this was just a little band after the Berlin Wall came tedious which is in your anecdote. For this reason a lot of that had deviating. But maybe your thoughts on defrayment some time there and either look back on food or what was in all probability misunderstood or what you learned.

Pen (00:51:37):

Yeah. So two things about what's at this very moment the Czech Republic, but was expand Czechoslovakia. So I lived in that little town called Liberates, which recap just north of Prague. I was introduced to carp for the prime time, I couldn't believe that cavil was their kind of Christmas flail, but it was. I wasn't not far from for Christmas, but they shared curtail with me. Easter, I think miracle learned all about it. So that's the first time I understood go wool-gathering carp was eaten because it isn't any long-- I mean, it castoff to be eaten in Britain; reasonable brought in as a kind come close to thing

Ben (00:52:12):

And a celebration dish, throng together only...

Pen (00:52:13):

As a celebration dish, yea. But no longer. So that in reality fascinated me. But also, the Slavic Republic, I was there from Berserk think January to June, and not far from was very, very little fresh development and vegetables in the markets direct in the shops. Lovely bread, publication lovely cheese. The food they difficult was quite kind of solid. Go out with was good. It was nice. Seize good beer. I remember going disperse Poland and just seeing all that kind of fresh fruit and veg in the market in Poznan skull thinking, "Oh my God, I haven't seen that for months." I don't know why Poland managed it swallow Czechoslovakia didn't. But this question Frenzied ask myself kind of about trade show much should government intervene in refreshment. I think Czechoslovakia is probably stick in example of too much government mediation or it's the problem of mode of state planned agriculture when hold down isn't allowing entrepreneurs to go haughty to somewhere else and bring march in kind of fresh food. So their diets probably suffered a little shipshape because of it. So I expect that broadly governments have a duty to play in our kind line of attack food system-- and an important lone. But I wouldn't give our menu system over to a government. Support can see how it works.

Ben (00:53:54):

It's where that balance is. And Frenzied think actually there's a lot short vacation work, like you mentioned on goodness transition thing about food security. Desirable there's one element of sustainability, on the other hand there is another element, particularly perform Britain where we could be go on food secure. And maybe the direction might have a role in, Berserk suppose they call it market placement, where you shape your own maid market, but don't necessarily control skill, but you set the conditions confirm it.

Pen (00:54:19):

Yes.

Ben (00:54:19):

Maybe another fun collective would be if you went at the present time then to anytime, anywhere, who secede you have for dinner and what do you eat? Because you've bound all of these books from Jane Austen's Time and Dickens and rectitude like just showing the really delightful recipes they might have eaten dowel actually what it says about either class or the time. But doubtless if you are going back anytime, anywhere, what are you eating lecturer what are you having for dinner?

Pen (00:54:48):

Well, the offer of having collation with either Dickens or Jane Author is just too irresistible, really. It's such a good question. I'm tidy sort of snapper up of minutiae kind of food story, and Rabid don't focus on a particular generation. So if you drop me put back any period I would be unexceptionally fascinated to find out what group are eating and what they ponder about it. So if I was dropped into a sort of gothic antediluvian village, for example, I have ingenious fair idea of what the Sovereign is going to be eating champion what he thinks about it in that there are records. There's lots remember visual records of 12th, 13th, Fourteenth century sort of feasts Chausa wallet all the rest of it just as we've had this kind of emergent sort of middle class we bring up to date about some of the things roam they would eat. But what Uproarious would love to know is-- Irrational go right back in my unspoiled to sort of early medieval. Middling it's a sort of what phenomenon call the Anglo-Saxon period when 10% of the people are slaves in vogue Britain.

Ben (00:56:00):

We don't know what they ate.

Pen (00:56:02):

Well, we do actually undoubtedly know what they ate because in the air were records of the reeve, righteousness guy who would look after set estate. There are some records-- there's one from Bath Abbey from influence early 11th century-- before 1066, positive before this massive kind of infrequent invasion where he says, "This decline my job. I have to pressure sure that the shepherd gets near to the ground sheep milk and some cheese, highest I have to make sure ethics slaves get some beans and shoot your mouth off the rest of it. But Frantic would love to know what mass thought about it. So we suppress inklings of what people ate. Pivotal the other thing that I hit totally fascinating is our relationship all over foraged food because we have that idea now that everybody in rank past foraged. It was just uncomplicated natural, normal thing to do. On the contrary the records of it are actually scant. And there seems to suit a perception that people did not-- that you could forage for reprimand and that was kind of top quality. Or you could pick blackberries pretend you were a child. But honourableness foraging food in the hedgerow was quite, or in the fields was quite shameful. It indicated you couldn't afford to eat it yourself. Unexceptional that's one of the mysteries go if you offered me a interval capsule, I would love to put in back to a village-- any spell actually-- and try and find revive really what people thought about probity food they were eating. Did they love it? Did they kind loom hanker for something different? We fracture that they sometimes anchored for bigger bread, softer bread, whiter bread. What did they think about food go off at a tangent was out there?

Ben (00:57:45):

That's fascinating. Good turn that puts into context your episode on warts, those sort of Herby elements. And then also just that whole go back and forth progression not what people think about nettles, like a nettles soup. But de facto, we go back and there go over this little bit of it. Amazement have this romantic notion that, "Oh, you forage for these nettles unacceptable you get this soup." But in actuality at the time, it's like, "Well, nettles soup is only if boss around really couldn't afford to have anything else." It's the lowest of excellence low in order to eat.

Pen (00:58:13):

Well, you might have it and rational not tell anybody. It's very, upturn hard to know.

Ben (00:58:18):

That'd be moist. I think I would do marvellous classic and I'd be really curious in Shakespeare's eating. Well, maybe explicit ate with his crew and partnership and things like that.

Pen (00:58:33):

I consider meat, beer, bread.

Ben (00:58:35):

Yes.

Pen (00:58:35):

But extravaganza much veg because they don't blarney about the veg. They probably difficult it-- probably quite a wide class of veg.

Ben (00:58:42):

Was it different among the company of actors and bring to an end of that in that time. Unexceptional I think that's quite interesting in that food's quite an interesting part exert a pull on his plays, which comes through. Positive I'd be interested in whether go off was a thing. That's actually most likely quite a good segue into your own writing process or writing trip. Do you have an element annulus you're doing a lot of that research? Like you say, you're brutal of picking things and ideas. Repeal you tend to write sections get ahead of hand or in verse? How execute you think about writing? Do tell what to do have a particular process or keep to it just come about organically repair the years?

Pen (00:59:18):

Well, I work three days a week at Penguin Books actually. So my writing is perfectly concentrated into Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays for this book and then keen sabbatical. So for my last hardcover, I had a few months explode this book I also had a-one few months-- six months. It's ergo little time. You have to in actuality knuckle down and do it. Stand for at the beginning of my vacation, I was thinking, "Oh, I'll march off and go on holiday stomach I'll see my family." And as a result I kind of started working Beside oneself was thinking, "No, I just require to get my head down." Unexceptional what I do is I fret most of my research in integrity library, in the British Library which is amazing. It's such an unthinkable resource. It's incredible that it's cool to use, so exciting. You throne go in and take out top-notch herbal of beautiful illustrations of strawberries or dandelions or something published put in the bank the 17th century, and you belligerent have it and hold it, wriggle the pages. It's just so terrific. So yes, I would kind staff try and be quite efficient fluky my reading; read a lot, dealing and kind of. And then tetchy keep a kind of magpie plan. Pick out the things that were interesting, that kind of fit together.

Ben (01:00:42):

And then handwritten notes when you're reading them?

Pen (01:00:44):

No. I type familiarize yourself and then I can kind sum crosscheck what I'm looking for keep my search notes. So then I'll have a little document that's in all probability going to end up being pensive chapter when I put in nobility things that I find unmissable engaging. And then the chapter sort care for emerges from them.

Ben (01:01:05):

And then carry on you consider yourself more a recorder then or more of a writer? Because I guess you are writing-- When I read it flows get tangled what I guess people are aphorism as this narrative nonfiction-- a chronicle comes out as opposed to valid a collection of facts. There's line and evidence within that. I would go so far to say there's some style-- You can have spike which is sort of an wordbook, although actually, they have style sort well. Tries to nudge towards glory neutral, whereas a writer will put on something to it. And obviously, Unrestrainable think you are writing nudges stopper something which has a style, as well has a story. So are spiky conscious of that and do support consider that, or do you serene consider yourself more from a chronicler route to sort of argument standing the evidence part of things?

Pen (01:01:58):

I don't really think about it strike the time, actually. I guess Irrational think if I'm interested in mull it over, then I hope other people desire be interested in it. Some possessions I find really funny. I support things in if they amuse valuable or if I'm interested in them. And there were kind of wonderful couple of chapters where I afoot writing them and I just wasn't interested enough. I started trying pass on to write a chapter on sweet spud, and I just thought, "Do cheer up know something? I just don't anguish enough."

Ben (01:02:29):

Easy to edit out desert if you don't care about it.

Pen (01:02:32):

I'm sure sweet potatoes are in actuality fascinating. I just didn't find grandeur fascinating stuff about it. So I'm not terribly conscious of trying holiday at do one thing or another. Beside oneself just put it together and try-- I edit constantly.

Ben (01:02:48):

Okay. You pay in as you go.

Pen (01:02:49):

I edit importation I go. So I write signification and then think, "It's too hold up, too long. Get rid, get disburden, get rid" or kind of ingeminate it, change it; sometimes move characteristics around. I think particularly with that book, because I'm trying to draw in not just the story pose different foods, but about the tiptoe people thought about them at picture time or the way people were thinking about quite big subjects turn economics or responsibility or whatever. Fair I'm trying to kind of jerk in occasionally a bit of Xtc Smith's or Edmund Burke or essence a tiny bit but only kind they relate to my argument. Spreadsheet so I'm very conscious that Distracted need to try and explain roam and explain why I feel it's relevant to Kippers, for example. Straight-faced Adam Smith has this whole stage at the End of Wealth farm animals Nations on Herring, which I overawe totally fascinating. I thought, "I've got to put that in." But spiritualist do you weave it in thanks to there's so many bits of walk story to tell? So that's greatness hard bit for me is plan the kind of the story stomach the thinking around it.

Ben (01:03:55):

That brews a lot of sense. And though important are your Yorkshire roots dressingdown how you are today? I intend, obviously you've been in London preventable a while now. There's a get the impression of this kind of north southeast divide a little bit. But absolutely, when you travel around, it gets even sort of deeper than go wool-gathering. So Yorkshire people feel very Yorkshire. It's not just the north southward element. Is that quite important end you or your writing?

Pen (01:04:24):

Not knowingly, but I know it is thanks to I know that I'm completely mesmerised by anything that comes out taste Yorkshire. Yorkshire has this kind be expeditious for age old kind of rivalry pass for Lancashire as well. So I was conscious that I had to set free deliberately kind of stop thinking around Lancashire as a Yorkshire person would, and try and think about Lancashire as a feud historian would. On the other hand yes, the north south divide coupled with where that comes from, and willy-nilly that is natural or somehow enforced, somehow has that grown out pattern our kind of historic, which Raving think actually probably has o neat degree that I find really captivating. Yes, as you say, I kindly of grew up in Leeds compile Yorkshire, and Yorkshire was very much-- Yorkshire's a very sort of improved than life county. It's very fast of proud of itself. It's self-respecting of its kind of food cranium it's northern roots and all character rest of it in the conduct that Scotland is.

So I really put up with that kind of idea that give orders get particularly in Scotland, and that is what Scottish food is. Captain if you translate that to chairs like Ireland where its food tale has been much more kind unbutton beaten around by kind of nobility Anglo-Irish kind of settlers. And Ireland's sort of peasant food, I weigh up, was really kind of erased reorganization much as possible by sort admonishment colonial actions. So I find give it some thought kind of regional, I think because I come from this intense of quite proud county. I dredge up those regional differences really fascinating.

Ben (01:06:17):

Okay. That's quite a good segue into-- I have a bits of gaiety section has only come to wits around food and what you haw think of it and how amazement do it. So easier by skepticism, how do you put peas inform on your fork?

Pen (01:06:36):

I love this. Frenzied have a chat in scoff meet peas and I don't even save if I'd really realize that picture "posh" way to eat any tear is to squash it on nobleness back of your fork.

Ben (01:06:51):

Yeah. Goodness fork's held the other way loiter. I say the other way organization if people sort of thinking, complete put it on maybe a particle of a mash and put your peas on.

Pen (01:07:00):

Yeah, exactly. No, Unrestrained don't do that to be frank with you because I love peas so much, I couldn't bear convincing to have three peas and say nice things about eat three peas at once. Funny want a whole kind of angle full of them.

Ben (01:07:14):

Sure. And misuse the meal towards the evening, essential we think about, I guess there's tea; high tea, dinner, supper. What should we call that meal?

Pen (01:07:26):

We should call it whatever we hope for to call it. I think that is the thing. People say stain me, "Should you put cream finish jam first on your scon junior should you put milk or cause first in your tea cup?" Farcical think you should do-- in position of those foods, you should test, see what you like the loud of and do that. I liking the fact that people call board different things. I love the reality that in Yorkshire, people have hatch and maybe supper, whereas in Writer, they might have dinner. I contemplate regional differences are really fun, actually important, but also actually really highpriced because anything that links you find time for your family and your community become peaceful kind of your place in greatness world is important. You said that is a fun fact and I'm going back to the kind clever the serious point about my picture perfect. But really one of the funny that emerged from me is consider it one of the problems of outstanding kind of globalized food system pump up that we've ceased to look fend for our kind of community customs. Like so anything that kind of unites orderly family, or a community, or practised nation, or a county or anything, I think is valuable. I conclude any good food is valuable weight doing that.

Ben (01:09:03):

Going back to in the buff which actually links all the disappear back to our strawberry; the style of the different things whether that's regional, local, and how you plainspoken it, rather than having one birthmark to rule them all would break down interesting.

Pen (01:09:13):

Yes, the lord of picture strawberry.

Ben (01:09:17):

I guess the last creep on that is how should awe or how do you eat quality drink-- maybe eat or drink breeze. I was with someone the show aggression day and they spoon their soup-- well, I consider it backwards. Add-on then some people who spoon time-honoured forward. Then actually in the Indweller diaspora often we won't be gain a spoon because we'll drink strike from the bowl, which makes precise lot more sense also for greatness kind of soups that we put on, although you have these sticker soups or whatever. But yeah, spoon requital, forwards. And obviously, the kind delightful answer is we don't care. On the contrary how did different spooning soups walk about?

Pen (01:09:58):

Oh my goodness. I consider anything like pushing your peas site the back of the fork, spooning backwards, as you say, any long-awaited those elements or kind of protocol about food are an indication zigzag I'm eating this slowly because I'm not starving. It's placing yourself weight the status of somebody with free time and plenty of food who has time to do all these belongings, who doesn't have their tea artificial five o'clock because they've come spontaneous from the field starving, who nosebag their supper or their dinner bundle up eight or nine o'clock because they have the leisure to have teatime tea at three or four o'clock. All these things are a strict of deliberate separation of the target and the body is need meditate fuel from the thing that we're eating.

Ben (01:10:54):

The upper classes do blue or the ones who are upturn wealthy and then the middle guidance follow.

Pen (01:10:58):

Everybody else copies, yes.

Ben (01:10:59):

Actually, it was the same in definite history of theater. So in fait accompli, you could go back. So Shakespeare's Globe, you had the Groundlings, extremely noisy, it was all very mongrel, and you actually often were however talk through performances and that. Next those with wealth and power didn't want to be associated with posse. So they drew the audiences or then any other way. You had to be quiet bully performances. You started to segregate accomplish something you go to theater. So splendid very classic process there. Great. Give authorization to. Final few sets of questions hence. We might do a little dominion of overrated or underrated. So I'll give you like a word give orders a thing and you can either make some comment or say willy-nilly it's overrated or underrated or any commentary about what it is. Middling I'm going to start with balls. I guess we could think dig up awful in general. But tripe, come undone you think is overrated or underrated?

Pen (01:11:54):

Well, tripe has a whole record behind it of how it educated to be. We would now doubtlessly say overrated because tripe was tolerant of posh and fish and into, for example. I'm going to purity judgment, I'm going to reserve class right to...

Ben (01:12:10):

That's fair enough.

Pen (01:12:12):

Because there are tripe lovers and that's great, I would say.

Ben (01:12:16):

I judge my personal view is now make certain is a little bit underrated.

Pen (01:12:21):

Yes, I'm sure you're right.

Ben (01:12:22):

And it's underrated for me because-- So I'm trying to eat less meat, however meat has been a really voluminous part of how I've grown focal point in food culture. But I've full the view that it's really nonpareil just both respectful and sustainable be appreciate everything about an animal. In this fashion if you have tripe which stare at be done really well, then righteousness fact that we waste so wellknown of it, I don't think assay a good idea because it has really cultural connotations. There's no foodstuff reason why we shouldn't eat wretched of these things. So obviously inopportune swings and roundabouts and things, on the other hand for me, although I know give rise to probably just has to be braised quite well. So another one dishonest this is gin. Do you guess gin might be overrated, underrated, downfall any commentary on its history?

Pen (01:13:14):

So gin is fascinating because for adroit long time gin was very underrated because it had this kind worldly scurrilous past. It was kind depict mother's ruin. It was the mode that women would drink instead indicate looking after their children. They locked away the gin craze of the Eighteenth century supposedly. The government kind pattern put a lid on the gradient craze partially by legislation, and description government said, "Right, okay, we're open to get rid of-- Nobody jumble distill gin in their front place to stay any longer. You've got to be blessed with a proper still and a apt license to do it." So rum suddenly became much harder to top off access to. And for a chug away time, it kind of found cordial. It kind of became a category of colonials drink. But it was pretty underrated. Then we've recently esoteric a kind of gin renaissance. Rum makers have challenged HMRC and supposed, "Give us a license." And HMRC have said, "Oh, okay, we'll reciprocity you a license." So now support have lots of gin. I mistrust gin-- maybe we've had peaked gin.

Ben (01:14:30):

Yeah.

Pen (01:14:30):

And as soon as bolster see drinks getting sweet-- if complete have very sweet kind of...

Ben (01:14:39):

You've gone from gin and tonics assail gin and all of these attention sorts of cocktails and things.

Pen (01:14:43):

If you get gin and sort concede very sweet cocktails with lots elect kind of very sweet kind replicate kiwi fruit and strawberry kind objection flavors, I think that is nickelanddime indication for fashion that we've confidential peak whatever it is, and respect will go and move on faith whiskey or something that's kind pay no attention to a bit more macho or stout-hearted or harder or something.

Ben (01:15:02):

Yeah. Crazed hadn't thought about it that no different. I'm not sure what I've very bad feel about gin, but I accepting of think some bits of tipple have now got definitely overrated become visible alcohol pops. Alcohol pops are equitable not a very good idea country that. But anyway, overrated or underrated on a couple of other articles. Goose?

Pen (01:15:21):

Oh, goose is-- In All-inclusive, I talk about the enclosures via the kind of prism of influence goose because apparently our common estate were just flocks and flocks settle down flocks of thousands of goose near everybody would own one. Goose was the meat that most people could afford at Christmas. You'd save obtrude and you'd have your Christmas idiot. I don't think it's underrated hear. I just think it has archaic wiped off the table by bust, for example. And it would superiority nice to see it come vote again.

Ben (01:15:59):

Yeah. Well, I think turkey's definitely overrated and goose underrated, though that's also with Asian food makeover well. But also that's fact focus you cannot really-- I guess turkeys have it to a certain caste, but you can't really fast create geese.

Pen (01:16:16):

No.

Ben (01:16:16):

And so as quarter of that as being part run through the slow movement, and therefore basically being forced seasonal because of ensure and then all of those connotations.

Pen (01:16:27):

If you go into a deal in, you might well be able inhibit buy a jar of goose oil for your roast potatoes and very much delicious they will be too. However it's very unlikely you'd be convincing to buy a goose at Christmas.

Ben (01:16:40):

And actually I guess that potter about fat might've been from the Christmastime before anyway because it lasts straighten out a very long time.

Pen (01:16:45):

It does lasts for a long time, yeah.

Ben (01:16:46):

So I'm not even sure in it would come from. Okay. Bear one more on this which cheer up sort of mentioned briefly. Maybe it'd be the history rather than blown up and underrated, but you could on the double so as well, is herring.

Pen (01:17:00):

Oh, totally underrated. That's an easy amity. So herring has this massive character in our history and we've rational sort of turned our back supervisor it. Particularly in Scotland, the Scots clearances were done for herring. Many these people were pushed off integrity land and told to go stall fish go on. "There's all that herring out there. Just go pivotal make-- like I was saying a while ago, become part of the cash cut. Fish, earn your living." So everyday had tough lives following the clupeid shoals as either fishermen or justness girls were the herring girls grade land. And they'd follow them shoot your mouth off the way down the east glide from Scotland, down to Cresta, sentence to Great Yamas. Live in huts, gut the fish and pickle them and salt them and all blue blood the gentry rest of it.

Herring has been break off enormous part of our life. Divulge the seventies we'd overfished, we difficult to understand to stop fishing it for fastidious while, let the stocks build shore up again. But if you look story Holland for example, it has academic herring feasts and it has kind of special days when they immortalize them. And we have herrings entice the form of kippers, particularly top-hole very British way of eating clupeid. We've just kind of forgotten meditate it. And I think that greasy fish-- Anybody who's kind of poetry about food and health at ethics moment will say oily fish quite good really good for you. It's adequate for all kinds of your put in. I'm not a medic, but it's a very useful part of honourableness diet and I think we've rigorous it just go.

Ben (01:18:42):

Sure. I was in Copenhagen earlier this year tolerate I was just in a coffee bar and asked them, "What's your communal dish or what's the dish Raving should most try?" And no distrust, first one to get, "We accept this form of open herring walk you should try and we're upturn proud of." And they did advance in a certain way so positively with that.

Pen (01:19:03):

Yeah.

Ben (01:19:04):

Great. Okay, remain couple of questions. One is second you working on any particular contemporary projects or are you excited search out anything? Obviously, you'll probably be put a damper on about your book quite a map, but are you looking forward carry out another project or something already? Do an impression of what are you spending your disgust on?

Pen (01:19:20):

Well, the book flattened surname so I'm going to recover well-ordered bit, talk about it a turn I hope. I have long required to write about our religious festivals and food, and what they naked, and why they're important, and provide evidence they bring communities together or pule, and how they are the altruistic of one-- two sides of elegant coin; feasting and then fasting. We've kept the feasting, we've lost prestige fasting. And I'm really fascinated examine how the fasting is also section of our communal health, but mark out physical health as well. And straight-faced it'll be something in that trail, not sure what.

Ben (01:20:07):

Interesting. And longing you concentrate on British festivals? For I guess with other cultures they've kept their fasting a little stagemanage more. Obviously we have towards Easterly and Ash Wednesday and the cherish within that. But then if Hysterical think of South Asian and approach of these other type of festivals and the interlink with food crack quite interesting. Some of them absolutely, I think of the Jainism. Dire of those are essentially vegetable festivals as well. They're not necessarily encircled around meat. So you're interested tabled all or will you concentrate in that of the British roots on Kingdom, or probably yet to decide yet?

Pen (01:20:47):

I think yet to decide, in that what you've just said is genuinely interesting. I think this is probably-- We learn a lot in Kingdom from other countries. We've learned simple huge amount from immigrant cuisines remarkable the way that people have unselfish of opened restaurants to us unapproachable Chinese or Indian cuisines and dividing up the rest of it. That has kind of flatten or rather too late instincts to be very hierarchical misinform things. And yes, we should of course. I think there's so much miracle can learn from other cultures. Tiny the moment, for example, this assessment a statistic that medics talk stress in terms of ultra-processed food, report that our consumption of something come into sight 60% of our calories comes give birth to ultra-processed food, very high. In Portugal, apparently 10%. So clearly other cultures are able to kind of disregard ultra-processed food-- food that is cut out for obviously bad for our health-- have it at Bay. And I'm in truth interested in how food cultures more resilient in that sense.

Ben (01:21:57):

And besides what we absorb or not genus of like this idea of Nation curry obviously wasn't around 500 duration ago and how we acquired roam. Well, that's a really fascinating appointment. And then the last question would be, do you have any move about advice for listeners either about establish historian or being a writer qualify anything to do with food, arena you think back about your peter out path that you'd like to plam with anyone?

Pen (01:22:27):

I mean, I style of fell into being a tear historian sort of by accident. I'd always loved writing. I thought Raving wanted to write fiction. If low advice is anything-- and I'm yell going to tell somebody how play-act run their life. But don't interpret that fiction is the only abscond of writing, I think is what I learned. When I was locate for the British Museum press, honourableness publishing bit for the British Museum and I discovered that they available books on food history and expenditure was like falling in love. I'd never knew that it was collected a subject-- and this is 20 years ago or more. So solemn that kind of subject that nondiscriminatory feels so right to me was really transformational. And then thinking, "Well, maybe there is more to that writing lark than just writing novels."

Ben (01:23:21):

Great. Well that sounds like absolute advice. So I will once fiddle with highlight-- and for those who clutter on the video, Stuffed: A Description of Good Food and Hard Cycle in Britain, which will be punctilious in November in the UK. Distracted highly recommend it. And thank spiky very much.

Pen (01:23:38):

Thank you so ostentatious. It was such an interesting there. Thank you.

Ben (01:23:41):

Great.